Wow, how cool! When I heard that neuroscientist Randal Koene was coming to the Netherlands and that I could meet him, I didn't hesitate for a moment! I don't want to let this opportunity go so I can interview him! After a two-and-a-half-hour drive, I stood at the Van der Valk Hotel to talk to Randal. It was a super fascinating conversation about a topic that affects us all: the future of our brains!
Imagine uploading your brain to a computer. It sounds like science fiction, but that's precisely what Randal and his team are working on. They hope to use brain emulation to preserve and even improve our brains.
Brain uploading would be an ideal application for space exploration. Space travel takes a toll on humans. Just look at those enormous distances between the stars. Wouldn't it be much more convenient to become robots? Randal is undoubtedly thinking about that.
"If you want to live in space, you need an exoskeleton, not a 'fluffy' body like we have. To another star? Here's one way you could do that. So we have to be robots. "
Randal believes humans will become adaptable to new environments, paving the way for space exploration. He dreams of a world where we can live and work anywhere, regardless of which planet.
Randal's vision of space travel appealed to me. Our conversation taught me a lot about the functioning of the human brain and the state of affairs in mind uploading. I'm grateful for the opportunity to talk to and learn from Randal.
I hope readers of this interview are as inspired as I am. I would love to see more people join Randal. Together, we can push the boundaries of human foresight and, who knows, explore the stars!
"Raising children is my most meaningful achievement; my daughters are my greatest contributions to the future."
I was born and raised in Groningen, the Netherlands. My father was a physicist, and my mother was an artist and ballet dancer (later a teacher). As a child, I stepped foot in both worlds.
At 13, I already knew what I wanted: to push the boundaries of the human brain and ensure that everyone could use it.
I am not only a scientist but also a bon vivant. I enjoy kayaking, hiking, camping, making electronic music, writing, and dancing at festivals like Burning Man.
I'm like any other person. I have two daughters, and they are almost adults now.
If you mean that raising children can also be included, I want to emphasize that. I am proud of them and very happy that they exist. Just by being there, they are an important contribution to the future. They fill my life with love, joy, and inspiration.
That's the most important thing. However, one of my achievements that I am proud of is converting a school bus into a camper. I take road trips to various places, including Burning Man.
Burning Man, people in the Netherlands probably don't know that like they do in America. But it is a mega festival in the Nevada desert, where thousands unite to build a temporary city for a whole week. We are talking about 70,000 people setting up a semi-circular town with all kinds of works of art and stages for music. There is a giant wooden statue of a man in the middle of that city, and they set it on fire at the end of the festival. It's bizarre and extraordinary!
I never thought I would become a brain scientist. I started my college years with physics.
My fascination with that profession was that we needed more time, opportunities, and control to become everything we wanted. Matter gives rise to everything, and from it, processes emerge. And if you have control over that, you can do anything.
But the more I learned, the more I became drawn to questions about the brain. How do those complicated things work? And how can you use them?
Before I knew it, I worked in artificial intelligence and brain science. I started researching the intersection of technology and the brain and soon learned that this is my passion!
Now, I'm a computational neuroscientist. I use my knowledge of physics and mathematics to understand how the brain works and develop new brain-inspired AI technologies. It's a journey I never expected, but I'm glad I started it. Unravel the workings of the brain and push the boundaries of human possibilities. That's incredibly cool and I would like to know where this journey will take me.
"Why exactly is the name Carboncopies? I think we just thought it was funny at the time. It was a play on words."
In 1994, when I was 23, I joined the Mind Uploading Research Group mailing list. At first, I did everything myself; I studied what was possible with the brain and what we could do with it. But once I had the internet, I could connect with other interested people. I met Suzanne Gildert at an Artificial General Intelligence conference in Lugano, Switzerland. She is a quantum physicist who shared my interest in artificial intelligence and brain emulation. We both thought there should be an online community for people who wanted to know something about this, and that's how we started Carboncopies. The name was a joke; it was the two of us first. Slowly but surely, more people joined us to help us with the website by uploading articles and stimulating discussions. It wasn't until around 2010 that we became more active and started setting up projects and expanding our community.
We came up with whole brain emulation to say how we can put your brain into a computer without confusing it with other things. We want to transfer the entire brain to another place without losing anything.
When we considered it further, we saw that our brains are imperfect. So we can improve them without missing anything. But we will opt for the whole brain because we do not yet understand everything about our brains.
Imagine, for example, that we copy only the cerebellum. That's the part of the brain that controls your movements. We can simplify that, and then it will work more efficiently. And you know what? That thing makes up 70% of our brains! If we can shrink that down, it will save a lot of space.
So, brain emulation is our way of saying we want to put our brain into a computer. For now, we'll do that with all the trimmings. We can improve it later.
"There's no reason to believe in a soul because you haven't shown me it exists. We have as much evidence for that as we do for elves and gnomes."
I know, I get that question often, too. People have different ideas of a soul. But when I think of a soul, I'm talking about something that exists before I am born and after I die. Something that is not directly dependent on the brain. There is as much evidence for it as elves and gnomes. So, I have no reason to believe in a soul because you have not shown me it exists.
The functioning of our brain is a complex process that occurs through the collaboration of many brain cells that talk to each other through chemical and electrical signals, forming complex patterns. Although the structure of our brain cannot exactly be compared to a computer network, there are similarities. For example, there are processes of exchanging information between different parts, each with unique functions and processes and remembering information differently. We divide memory into parts, such as short-term, medium-term, and long-term memory, where filters, repair, and sort processes occur to remember the information.
One cool thing about our brain is the subconscious, which is present in our brain activity, even in things we do consciously. Even though we are unaware of these processes, they influence our actions. Research shows that consciousness involves all brain parts accompanied by gamma waves (between 38 and 80 Hz). Gamma waves ensure that things remain separate, and the brain stores the information in short-term memory.
The brain stores our memory not in a fixed place; it is more of a pattern that is seen and given meaning throughout the entire circuit. The structure of our brain consists of many groups of brain networks that work together and communicate with each other through structured pathways, just like the bus lines on a computer. This bus allows information to be easily shared and processed between brain parts.
The gamma wave is a crucial part of how our brain works. It ensures that different brain activities can occur at various speeds and synchronize. This gamma wave resembles a clock in a computer that ensures that all processes happen at the correct time.
The rhythm of this information loop is an essential element of our consciousness, although we still need to understand how it works thoroughly. The combination of different parts and processes in our brain also seems to play a significant role in our consciousness and ability to store and process information. Our brain is, therefore, a complicated and fascinating system that scientists are still working on.
The volume of a mouse brain is 500 mm³ and that of a human brain is 1 million mm³. Thus, we can calculate this by dividing 1 million mm³ by 500 mm³, which gives us 2,000.
Then, we must multiply this by 2,500,000 terabytes (the storage capacity for 500 mm³ of mouse brains). This multiplication gives us a total of 5,000,000,000 terabytes (or 2,000 times 2,500,000 terabytes), roughly five zettabytes.
The required storage capacity depends on the compression technologies you could use. Much of the brain has similar repeated microcircuits, such as the more than 3,000 different types of brain cells. Many of the approximately 100 billion human brain cells are the same. For example, if you could only store the cell type with the cell properties of all cells, this would significantly save on storage space.
Someone recently said the first human brain scan might cost between one and two billion dollars. That's a lot of money, but that does not include all costs, such as the translation of collected brain data to the correct parameters of a working, runnable system. Scaling up the process could make it less expensive.
One of the most exciting applications of brain emulation is in space travel. As a fan of space, exploring and colonizing other planets using artificial bodies explicitly designed for space, this fascinates me immensely. It could completely change our knowledge of the universe, allow us to push boundaries, and discover previously impossible things.
Artificial bodies are an extraordinary application of brain emulation because of their countless benefits. Unlike humans, these bodies overcome limitations and excel at tasks that are too dangerous or difficult for us, such as space travel. Furthermore, they can be adapted to specific environments or tasks, making them more flexible and usable. These bodies also offer the opportunity to overcome our physical limitations and improve ourselves, which could result in a whole new form of human evolution. In addition, using artificial bodies allows us to stretch time, giving us more time to pursue our passions, learn, and discover. Furthermore, these bodies can improve our creativity and learning ability by allowing our brains to work more efficiently and faster. Finally, using artificial bodies through brain emulation also offers opportunities for people with physical disabilities or diseases, allowing them to live better lives. The concept of artificial bodies through brain emulation is an exciting application, allowing us to break through our limits and evolve into a better version of ourselves.
I am fascinated by the possibility of extending human life and its duration using brain emulation. I often long for more time to pursue my interests and learn new things. Brain emulation can make this possible, giving us more time to learn and explore.
Brain emulation's potential level of flexibility and adaptability is also fascinating. As a human being, I need to adapt quickly to challenges. With brain emulation, I could change my physical and mental abilities to better adapt to different environments and situations.
I haven't signed up for cryonics yet. I'm still unsure about the procedures, but I should because it's better than nothing.
The scanning equipment can only be used on dead patients at the moment, but there is a possibility that we could bring them back to life through reconstruction after death. I'm not too worried about this because being reconstructed after death could actually revive you. The challenge lies in translating static data into functioning models, which makes the process of "Translation" quite difficult. Ideally, we would be able to directly correlate function with structure and validate the results. Unfortunately, this isn't possible when working with deceased patients.
For example, an MRI scan only has a resolution of 0.5 to 1.5 millimeters, which is useful for hospitals and medical science, but more is needed to see individual cells. Neurons usually have a size between 4 and 100 micrometers, depending on the type and location in the brain. For example, the neurons in the cerebral cortex are generally larger than those in the brainstem. CT scanners use X-rays and have a resolution of approximately 0.5 mm. Other scanners, such as PET and PET-CT, have a higher resolution of 3-5 mm and can even work at the level of individual cells. Calcium imaging and voltage imaging are two techniques used to measure the activity of neurons.
Other types of scans, such as electron microscopy (EM) and expansion microscopy (ExM), require properly preserved post-mortem tissue. Researchers are continuously developing and improving scan technology and resolution. Thanks to this improvement, new and advanced scanners will likely increase resolution, reliability of collected data, and speed of data collection.
A few ideas are floating around. I was thinking of a different approach to learning how it all works. What exactly do we need to make a successful scan? Some people believe nanobots could be the solution, but even then, there are still some hurdles to overcome. Unfortunately, no other method can create scans while we are still alive. There may be another way, but I need help figuring it out.
It is an important question to think about. See, it's about more than just the limitations of scanning; it's also about the fact that we have to rely on things like electron microscopes that only give us the structure, not the function. That's a big deal, you know? Because when researchers look at this, they also wonder how they can translate structure into function. For example, when they look at the images of the fly brain, they probably think, "Okay, here's my model of how it works, and I can fill in all the parameters correctly." But believe me, it takes a lot of work to answer. It has been a while since anyone has worked on that. Indeed, there are some reconstructions of individual neurons and a few cells in the fruit fly's visual system, but we need to do more to understand how these neurons work together. That challenging work is precisely why it is so difficult to translate from structure to function. You need to understand all the system's limitations to determine what types of noise and errors you can handle. They can mess things up.
That's where validation becomes so important. It is critical to ensure that whatever we reconstruct from these scans is accurate. But as you can imagine, this is a challenging task. We need to ensure that our methods are constantly improving and that we are learning from our reconstructions. And that's where the Carboncopies project comes into play. We're working on a platform that makes it easier for researchers to validate their reconstructions and improve their methods. To make it even more exciting, we organized a challenge for those who can make the most accurate models. People love a good challenge.
This challenge will help accelerate research and draw more attention to our work. We have all these great reconstruction tools and datasets but need more funding to make a significant impact. That's why we hope to get more people involved in this challenge and even explore crowdfunding to raise some extra prize money. And yes, if X-Prize wants to collaborate with us, we are certainly open to that idea.
But wait, I still need to show you the best part. Look, we're not just using any datasets for this challenge. We use our datasets from systems we already know everything about. Yes, we have the ground-truth networks to compare our models. And the best part? We can start small with just a few neurons and a simple structure and then gradually increase complexity until we test our models on tissue. We even work with cultured cells to see and record everything that happens. That may not seem like a big deal, but it's crucial to understanding how to translate from structure to function.
So yes, our main challenge is validating and continuously improving our methods. And believe me, that is a challenging task. However, we are committed to this research and constantly look for ways to make it more exciting and engaging. And if you're interested in helping, we can always use some extra help. Trust me, every little bit counts.
Oh, and one more thing. Have you already viewed our website? We constantly update it with the latest developments and have placed the challenge there for anyone who wants to participate. We will surely make incredible breakthroughs in this field if more people work together. And who knows, you might get an invitation to our head office or another nice extra. It's all about pushing boundaries and making a difference in brain-scanning technology.
"The big challenge is the translation from structure to function."
The biggest challenge is translating from structure to function. It gives you all the information you need. It's like opening a computer chip and trying to see what's inside. All data is there, and you will lose nothing except short-term memory, which is stored electrically. So, you lose that information in the translation method for brain emulation.
So, it doesn't take that much energy to run such an emulated brain. If we have the proper knowledge and technology, we can package the brain and make it function how we want, even as fast as a real brain. It would help if we made particular processors. It's like training artificial intelligence, which requires a lot of strength, but once trained, we don't need that much strength anymore. With the proper knowledge and technology, we can do this without requiring too much computing power.
If you ask my opinion, this is not an easy question. It will take quite a while before we can realize this. Many things come into play, such as how fast our computers work, the type of scans used, and which translation methods work well. It also depends on how hard different researchers work on it. It's hard to say precisely how long it will take because it's a complicated scientific problem. I would be surprised if, in fifteen years, we could ultimately translate the human brain. I'd be shocked if we couldn't do it before the end of this century. If we don't succeed within the next 75 years, we will make a mistake somewhere. You never know what will happen; a war, for example, can also influence our goal. So it isn't easy to be sure about that.
The two biggest things needed for brain emulation are people and money. That's what will take us further. However, telling and teaching others about this challenging subject is complex. That is why we are building both a whole-brain emulation roadmap and ethics framework to conduct our research correctly. Teaching is also important to get people interested in brain emulation because that ultimately leads to further development.
Taking various measures can protect privacy and personal rights when uploading the brain. First and foremost, encryption and other security methods can help protect one's brain's data and information. We can introduce rules and laws to prevent uploaded brains from being hacked or accessed unauthorized.
It is also important to make backups if any technical problems occur or data is lost.
In the exciting book, "The Age of Em: Work, Love, and Life when Robots Rule the Earth," Robin Hanson discusses the dangers of brain uploading from a specific economist perspective. For example, he warns that people with uploaded brains may be exploited by companies or even forced to work for low wages.
'Upload' (Greg Daniels), takes a fun and somewhat realistic representation of brain emulation and uploading in series. It explores the concept of uploading your consciousness into a virtual world intriguingly and believably. The show tackles this complex subject with humor and a positive outlook, making it a joy to watch.
In the 2004 Battlestar Galactica series, the Cylons, an intelligent race, can upload and retain their consciousness and knowledge whenever they die. This process makes them more thoughtful and more effective with each death, making them an increasing threat to the human survivors. This concept adds a severe and profound layer to the series, exploring questions about consciousness, technology, and ethics.
Other films, like Transcendence and The Matrix, also present an interesting take on the concept, but Upload stands out as the most relatable, fun and non-dystopian.
Being a virtual being, I wouldn't mind living in a virtual world inside a computer. It would be interesting to see what that world looks, feels, hears, smells, and tastes like. Perhaps it would resemble the "matrix" or something completely different. I'm constantly curious about exploring new platforms and technologies, so a virtual world would be something I'd enjoy living in. I've considered uploading my thoughts to a computer and living in a vitrual world. However, I would like to experience several virtual worlds and platforms and expand beyond just one. I also want to go in and out of the virtual world and not limit myself to the virtual world but explore the natural universe.
"Can a neuroscientist understand a microchip? Look for causes instead of just connections."
If you're into brain emulation, a good tip is to connect with others who are also interested. Join a group or organization that supports the community. Get to know people who share your interest. This advice is essential. Aspiring neuroscientists should focus on computational neuroscience or using large data sets to reconstruct brain circuits. Classical neuroscience consists primarily of hypothesis-driven correlational research, which needs to be updated. Look for causes, not just connections. Check out Konrad Kording's research on understanding the brain and comparing that with attempting to apply neuroscience methods to understanding a microchip.